http://gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html

Gush-Shalom is a group of Israeli who are Israeli peace activists.

Check out their goals here, including Israeli retreat to pre-1967 border.

Bob, if you think I’m misled, please leave factual links that show the other side of story. I understand that it will take time, and I appreciate your effort in doing that. After all, arguing is not very helpful. Collecting facts for everyone to read, judge, and form their opinions is the best.

Harkonnendog, I did not state that I think Jewish should get out of Israel. Personally, I think Israel should retreat to their pre-1967 border, as stated by the open letter from 3800 American Jewish. Someone here tell me what legitimate reasons for anyone to have to stay in your home/yard for almost 40 years, and just keeps refusing to move and give it up? Instead, more illegal Israeli settlements just keep mushrooming, mostly funded by US tax dollars, about 3 billions every year. I really would like to know this answer if it is legitimate.

Once that is done the Palestinians won’t be occupied and won’t come after us!

I’m not sure where all the Jews should go, but they certainly can’t be allowed to stay in Israel since their simply being there is
1) an affront to Arab pride, which leads to attacks
2) an invitation to attacks which are
3) no morally okay to respond to with more attacks.

Maybe they should be allowed to go back to Europe? If the Palestinians have a right to return the Jews certainly do. Then again a lot of Arabs in Europe hate the Jews, especially the Israeli ones, so that might not work out. Maybe America can take them? But this all assumes they want to leave! What if they don’t? Maybe some day there will be a final solution to the Jewish problem. Until then we pacifists will just have to suffer.

I admire the thoughtful way you attempt to couch your position, but I must agree with Hank: sure, your link supports your view, but there are websites that offer “proof” that Bush was behind 9/11, too. Or that the Holocaust is a myth.

The site you referred me to is not in that category, but it isn’t all that far from it, either.

I respect your opinion. You issue the disclaimer that you are a pacifist, and I accept this bias. (Indeed, I applaud it.) Nothing wrong with that, good on ‘ya, mate. But I take exception to your linkage of 9/11 and the Palestinian problem. While I disagree with much of what you wrote, I like to read and think about views contary to my own, and as noted above, I think you are a thoughtful person.

But, Frugal, there is no correlation whatsoever – none – between 9/11 and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Your assertion to the contrary betrays an historical, intellectual and yes, perhaps even moral (though that may be a bit strong) failing so deep and so fundamental that I suspect further discourse would not be productive.

I should, of course, leave you with some links, but I have to run. But you definitely need to read a little more on the history of the middle east. You need some other sources for your facts, because you have been misled.

If I have offended you, I apologize. But I will leave you with a thought experiment. Assume for a moment that there was no Israel (which just so happens to be the stated policy of most Arab states). Would anything in the Middle East (beyond conflicts with Israel) be any different?
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Bob, you provided no links, so I’m crossing out your baseless comments. My answer to your last question is certainly Middle East will be VERY different if there is no Israel (but by no means, I think Israel should be out. Such thinking is simply unrealistic.).

Looks like you don’t particularly like my site from your various comments on a couple of my posts.  If you don’t like to read my site, I will be happy to block your IP address. Given the amount of time that I have for blogging, I can’t possibly state everything in legal language like a lawyer, without any possible fault.

Self-defense to a certain extent is obviously okay. Everything comes down to how much. Most of the things in life are not black and white, but just different degrees of gray. I’m much closer to resorting to peaceful means, while others may not agree. And that’s fine. It’s close to impossible to agree on every minute details, right? And I respect everything that you have to say. But I do hope all discussions here won’t get into some personal fight. If I do get too personal, my apology.

Regards.

This article is a good place to start for someone, (esp. anyone who previously was disinterested in the whole Middle East conflict) BUT IT IS NOT THE FINAL NOR ULTIMATE WORD OR TRUTH ON THE BACKGROUND.

I find it to be extremely opinionated & slanted towards those “poor palestinians” you refer too.

I find it funny how the writer equated the hundreds of years of Ottoman rule as being Arab or Palestinian in nature, which it was not. The Turks, albeit muslims, where Central Asian and NOT AT ALL ARABS, took the land after defeating the Christian Bystantine Empire, which ruled the area. DO they count as jews or palestinians?

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If you just read a couple of pages, and want to call it extremely opinionated, then I don’t know what to say.  Obviously, every opinion is opinionated, but just whether based on facts or not.  There are many articles besides this one too on the internet by Jewish people.  One just needs to look.  To be honest with you, the part you comment is the least of my concern.  But I definitely agree with you.  This is by no means FINAL.  One should always read both sides of arguments and determine for themselves.  I’m putting up one side of argument, and I welcome readers to add links for the other side.  I’m simply expressing my opinion, and I fully respect your opinion.  But that does not mean that I should take anyone’s personal insult.

If you read my World War III post, you should know my position very well. No amount of injustice can justfity any violence. Any violence is wrong. That’s my basic position. I truly feel as sorry for the innocent Israeli as for the innocent Palestinian and Lebonanese. Violence is simply WRONG.

The “small” rocket is only in comparison to the SIZE of Israeli bombs falling on top of Lebanon right now.

Now, I ask everyone to read the some of the Jewish opinions from that link. Ignorance is the root cause for any conflict.

“However, please be factual and compassionate to human lives.”

No offense, but I think that in your need to be compassionate you are completely overlooking the other side of the equation. Israel deserves compassion as well, there are families there that have had extreme tragedy incurred on them by Palestinian suicide attacks. I really dislike this “Israel is the big bad oger and Palestinians are just poor victims” approach to this conflict. Both sides are wrong, and both sides are right. They need to compromise.